• 62756.1
• 
• chrism
• Tuesday, 31 January 2012 15:34:33 GMT

from an un-reconstructed marxist

the working class control nothing but their labour.

the ruling class control the means of production, distribution and supply (PDS).

the middle class are a fairly small group made up of highly educated people (e.g. drs, lawyers, university lecturers), senior public sector management, and small business owners who don't own enough of the means of PDS to have any real power, but are still better off (and i don't mean financially) than the working class.

the problem with merely putting financial boundaries on the groups is that you can change your status even though nothing really changes. for instance, marg: if there was an economic boom with high wage inflation, and relatively low price inflation (it's certainly not coming soon!) you'd become middle class, but nothing would really have changed except you could afford to send your kids to piano lessons.

the ruling classes want us to believe that we're all middle class now (or at least should aspire, and are able, to become middle class), but really we're mostly just more comfortable working class than our grandparents (and in most cases less comfortable than our parents).

but don't worry, unless you're one of the undeserving poor (in england they call them chavs, in scotland neds and in ireland travellers!) or disabled you didn't cause the financial crisis and they're all working hard to dig you out of the hole.

• 62756.2
• 
• Fola
• Tuesday, 31 January 2012 16:07:18 GMT

I think of

upper class as having huge expensive properties to run that are a noose around their necks, and they talk with plummy accents. Their power is that they can be in deeper debt than others.

Middle class believe they have some element of choice and can appear naive.

Working class are the proudest people, they look down on anyone they perceive to have more than them. They dont suffer fools gladly and are alot more streetwise than middle class.

I worked with upperclass and working class people. If upper class objected to a development (ie a new gate to a house) they employed solicitors to write letters (to their neighbours) and spent money objecting to planning permissions, (even for minor things)

If working class objected, they got their local TD involved without spending a penny (i.e. same result, more savvy)

Middle class people do nothing, and then spend the rest of their lives giving out about their view being blocked and such.

In cities the divisions are more noted, there are very different cultures. Where I come from, I don t really see a difference between one or the other, cos we all go to school together, celebrate life in a similar way, (ie church rituals) etc. It sounds kinda old fashioned really, in this day and age. Was definitely more pronounced in my parents generation, and even more so again, before then. (ie the Titanic ship having different levels for different classes.

• 62756.3
• 
• nolaN
• Wednesday, 01 February 2012 2:46:06 GMT

more pronounced...

Yes, it was more pronounced, as Fola suggested, in past decades. But, alas, here it comes again, loud and clear as far as the economics are concerned. I grew up lower middle, then went to lower, then to middle, then a couple of good financial art years which put us to not quite upper middle (and that was niiiiiice, not having to worry about paying bills and being able to collect art, too)....now sliding down to working, or lower income in my dotage and I'm not too happy about that. I would never say the middle class don't do anything....hmmmm. Would like to be there again. And have no qualms with others having lots o'money....if I had it I'd be giving it away. Too much is just too much, ya know?

• 62756.4
• 
• Kez
• Wednesday, 01 February 2012 10:14:32 GMT

Hmmm

Does class really work like that and shift around like that? I was always under the impression it was fairly stagnant. I don't think it depends on your income solely. Certainly here in Britain your class is defined by a number of things as stated by people above. My boyfriend would certainly be pigeonholed as working class and is from a very working class background, and his family were all from a very working class area of London but he himself at the moment earns a "middle class" wage. None of his family went to University, himself included.

I on the other hand came from a middle class background my father was a teacher and my mother a nurse(probably about as middle class as you get), they were both university educated and came from middle class backgrounds. however, when they moved to Ireland they bought a farm and pretty much started from scratch and were earning a very very minimal amount. I don't think though that this suddenly made us all working class.

Then when my mother, my brother and I moved to London we lived on a council estate for about 4 years. My brother and I, however went to a very good primary school and although my mum was on a single parent income and working in a shop to support us, that didn't suddenly make us all working class either.

When I got to secondary school my mum was earning better money as she'd started up her own business but we lived in a very poor area of London. I tell you what, if I'd gone to school and tried to tell any of my mates I was working class, I would've got a punch in the face for my troubles

I just don't think class fluctuates that much.

• 62756.5
• 
• chrism
• Wednesday, 01 February 2012 11:08:00 GMT

interesting kez

that you think of teacher & nurse as "about as middle class as you get": i'd say they are both most definitely working class jobs, though i'd guess people doing them would have a range of views of how they'd describe themselves. both still have fairly crummy starting salaries for those straight out of university, and their pensions (once the reward for putting up with lower pay) are being hammered by the posh boys in government.

people's class clearly can change i reckon. my dad left school at 15 and went straight to work as a farm labourer, followed by a few more years of manual work. most definitely working class. he then went into the prison service and to start off i'd say definitely he was still working class, just a worker doing somebody else's bidding - though at times with lots of overtime meaning he had a tidy income. he moved up into the management ranks and finished up as second in charge at the largest prison in the country (among other things overseeing europe's largest methadone clinic, as he was proud of boasting!). by that point he was (and with his healthy pension and part time work i'd definitely say still is) middle class, though he'd argue that he never could be because he started off "milkin' coos".

• 62756.6
• 
• Kez
• Wednesday, 01 February 2012 12:18:56 GMT

well that's what I mean

Class is for me is all about your background and your family and about where you grew up. I think although O'Know pointed out that it is more difficult to define in a capitalist society these days, people still have quite a clear cut view of what class they are and where they are from and that dopesn't change very much and like you say, for your dad that didn't seem to change much either.

Maybe I was talking about my parents in particular about their jobs vs their class but they lived comfortably enough, although certainly weren't flush. It is a myriad of factors though.

• 62756.7
• 
• observer
• Wednesday, 01 February 2012 13:27:32 GMT

portability of class

Picturing Kez giving some bloke a blowie on the street corner to earn a little crack money, and he starts talking nasty, and she stops, looks up, and says in her properist of the Queen's English, "Sir, I resent your tone. Are you not aware that I am middle class?"

• 62756.8
• 
• Kez
• Wednesday, 01 February 2012 14:06:00 GMT

Fuck you

it is a well known fact that I with my middle class connections I can get my crack for free. ya cock.

• 62756.9
• 
• Kez
• Wednesday, 01 February 2012 14:07:48 GMT

And by the way observer

Your Sunday Supplement is fucking shite.

(if you're a middle class lefty you'll get that one)

• 62756.10
• 
• noLan
• Wednesday, 01 February 2012 20:22:54 GMT

class or class

I'm pigeonholing 'class' in this discussion as purely financial...so, one can slide up and down, willy nilly. On the other hand, though at the moment I am ever so working class financially, with my education and talents, I'd put me up there with the best of them. =]

• 62756.11
• 
• Fola
• Thursday, 02 February 2012 11:51:40 GMT

am similar

to kez, would see class as being a cultural thing, rather than a financial thing. (what people value again)

But yes, many peoples lives change and I do know people who live a middle class lifestyle now though they grew up working class.

• 62756.12
• 
• Buffy
• Thursday, 02 February 2012 12:29:54 GMT

just throwing it out there

(Once again, I hate these lables.)

I would consider education to be part of this. You rarely meet a 'middle class' person who says 'I seen' or 'I done' etc., yet I know a few teachers who speak like this (I don't, ever.) These teachers come from a 'working class' background and are usually heavily indebted to student loans companies. The dumbing down of education and entertainment is also to blame for the bad grammar though.

Upbringing is definitely a part of your social status. As Kez said, starting off again on a farm for example doesn't make you 'working class.' By the way - farmers, working class? - not in my opinion. Life-long wage earners/dole recipients, not salary earners/land owners sort of... no?

(Again, not my lables, not my distinctions, not my idea of what's real, etc..)

• 62756.13
• 
• Buffy
• Thursday, 02 February 2012 12:34:06 GMT

Sorry, I meant not in my understanding

of how I believe others in Ireland, especially rural Ireland, percieve class differences; not, not in my opinion as I typed above.

I couldn't give a flying fuck what labels society wants to throw on anyone. Far too much of that bullshit floating around these days. As Morgan Freeman says, Stop talking about it.

EQUAL.

• 62756.14
• 
• O'know
• Wednesday, 08 February 2012 8:58:40 GMT

Anyone

else visualising that famous sketch from the Frost report with John Cleese and the Ronnies Barker and Corbett?